tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post114490028748865262..comments2023-10-20T07:28:50.948-07:00Comments on Better Bibles Blog: Structure and translationWayne Lemanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18024771201561767893noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1145419478459998412006-04-18T21:04:00.000-07:002006-04-18T21:04:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1145367290956440702006-04-18T06:34:00.000-07:002006-04-18T06:34:00.000-07:00Thanks for the informative look at this simple ver...Thanks for the informative look at this simple verse. Reading it in Greek and getting the message seems straightforward, but expressing it in English is the trick. <BR/><BR/>Using more words seems to help but can get awkward and forces the translation issues. And this is an easy read!<BR/><BR/>I agree about our reading backwards with odd English to make some versions sound perfectly okay.<BR/><BR/>And I would love to see some work on the kingdom of the heavens (pl)!Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17385457876622711308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1145314701915269862006-04-17T15:58:00.000-07:002006-04-17T15:58:00.000-07:00Peter, Yeah, but .... Your translation is in a...Peter,<BR/> Yeah, but .... Your translation is in a class of constructions in which a one or more elements is extracted "equally" from conjoined clauses, so it really is quite different from the Greek structure which is embedded.<BR/><BR/> The three kinds of constructions are called <B>gapping</B> and <B>right node raising</B> and simple verb conjunction. Structures are gapped when the verbs would be identical in both clauses, as in<BR/><BR/> <I>John ate the candy and Mary the ice cream.</I><BR/><BR/>But when it's the object, then it's right node raising.<BR/><BR/> <I>John found and Mary ate the candy.</I><BR/><BR/>In this construction there is felt to be a pause (or something) before the object. But when the subject is identical as well as the object, the verbs can be straightforwardly conjoined.<BR/><BR/> <I>John found and ate the candy.</I><BR/><BR/>This last one is the structure your translation is built on.<BR/><BR/>Again the difference is that conjunction and embedding are structurally quite different. And again we lose track of that in Bible translation because we so often have to translate Greek embedded constructions with English conjoined constructions. And the shift between the two still makes my point. It isn't the structure of the original.<BR/><BR/>As for "taking on" Packer, if anyone says anything that naive, no matter how respected an authority he is, he deserves to be called on it. And notice the details of the wording of his pronouncement. I'll let anyone listening in work out the implications of that as a exercise.Richard A. Rhodeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14227550014596898280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1145311992009911662006-04-17T15:13:00.000-07:002006-04-17T15:13:00.000-07:00Thank you, Richard. This is certainly thoight prov...Thank you, Richard. This is certainly thoight provoking, and I admire you for being prepared to take on Packer so publicly and clearly.<BR/><BR/>But surely we can translate ον ευρων ανθρωπος εκρυψεν into English reasonably accurately without repeating the object: "which a person found and then hid". Is there anything wrong with that rendering?Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.com