tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post1539538710603208697..comments2023-10-20T07:28:50.948-07:00Comments on Better Bibles Blog: Is Adam our ruler?Wayne Lemanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18024771201561767893noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-59083287375616887012007-08-25T14:13:00.000-07:002007-08-25T14:13:00.000-07:00Martin,I agree with your assessment of divorce and...Martin,<BR/><BR/>I agree with your assessment of divorce and I am incredibly grateful that it is easier to get a divorce these days. I am not one of those who lobbies for the "good old days."<BR/><BR/>I read somewhere on a blog recently that a person felt they were quite justified in getting remarried themselves because their spouse had an affair, but an abused wife was bound for life to remain single. <BR/><BR/>Then I walked into a store and watched an Oprah episode about a woman whose husband had shot their kids and planned to shoot her. Years later she was happily remarried and had just had a baby. Now imagine some Christians saying that she was still legally bound to her ex-husband for the rest of her life! Ugh. <BR/><BR/>I mentioned Sydney because I found your thesis through a blog that mentioned it was in Moore College. I guess I just assumed that there was some connection. <BR/><BR/>Anyway, it was a very favourable review.<BR/><BR/>From Grudem's Systematic Theology,<BR/><BR/><I>Adam named Eve. The fact that Adam gave names to all the animals indicated Adam's authority over the animal kingdom, because in Old Testament thought the right to name someone implied authority over that person (this is seen both when God gives names to people such as Abraham and Sarah, and when parents give names to their children.) Since a Hebrew name designated the character or function of someone, Adam was specifying the characteristics or functions of the animals he named. Therefore, when Adam named Eve by saying, "She shall be called Woman, because she ws taken out of Man" Gen. 2:23), it indicated a leadership role on his part as well. This is true before the fall, where Adam names his wife "Woman," and it is true after the fall as well, when "the man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living"(Gen.2:23). page 463</I><BR/><BR/>Then he goes on to say that it is all right for a mother to name a child because the parents together have parental authority over the child. However, the husband still has authority over the wife.<BR/><BR/>If, as David says, all such questions are peripheral then I think it is a shame that we all can't share a common Bible version, one that graciously translates <I>anthropoi</I> as "humans" and <I>adelphoi</I> as "brothers and sisters."Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-62381811828718231452007-08-25T06:34:00.000-07:002007-08-25T06:34:00.000-07:00The naming of Jesus is interesting in light of yo...The naming of Jesus is interesting in light of your post and comments. God tells an angel to tell Joseph to name Jesus / Joshua. Does that give the earthling step-father dominance over this earthling son of God? Matthew goes on to translate "Joshua" (1:21) and goes on further to quote Isaiah (7:14) and to translate "Immanuel" (Matthew 1:23). Matthew, Joshua's disciple, by translating is naming his master in a way.<BR/><BR/>And our master, Joshua aka Jesus, re-names some of his disciples (i.e., Peter, "Rock" and those two "sons of thunder"). And he calls his obedient followers his "mother and brothers." <BR/><BR/>Naming does seem to be an aspect of the image of God, which male and female earthlings participate in. The question of dominance and dominating by naming is a good one!J. K. Gaylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07600312868663460988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-44062133033281716672007-08-25T06:26:00.000-07:002007-08-25T06:26:00.000-07:00Hi Suzanne,I was especially interested in where yo...Hi Suzanne,<BR/><BR/><I>I was especially interested in where you explain the meaning of תְּשׁוּקָתֵךְ teshukah as control or dominate in Gen 3:16. Waltke mentioned that in class. However, he then said that the cause for the increased divorce rate was because of women wanting to control their husbands, and abandoning their proper "role". I actually started to shake. In fact, I had a little talk with him. Not a good scene.</I><BR/><BR/>That strikes me as a rather odd conculsion to reach: I'm sure the increased divorce rate is the result of many, many differing factors. It is easier to get divorces, both legally and socially, now than in the past, but ISTM that doesn't reflect wives abandoning the "proper role." Gen 3 is all about the breakdown of relationships, so I think it tells us that there have always been tensions in marriages, increased divorce just reflects this ease of availability, not a sudden mutiny by wives.<BR/><BR/><I>My pastor is from the Sidney Diocese but I finally decided that I would have to leave that church. Too bad.</I><BR/><BR/>I assume that you're referring to the Anglican Diocese. I'm not Anglican.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06742562181125859847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-52297696700863959272007-08-24T23:43:00.000-07:002007-08-24T23:43:00.000-07:00Martin,I have learned a lot about Gen.1-3 by readi...Martin,<BR/><BR/>I have learned a lot about Gen.1-3 by reading 1 Cor.15.It seems to me as if the important thing is our place in the order of things as earthy, and being our own species, not being animals, but not being like God. Then Christ comes to be like us, so we can be like him. Gender doesn't really enter into this part of the discussion. It cleared the air for me a bit to then read your paper. <BR/><BR/>I was especially interested in where you explain the meaning of תְּשׁוּקָתֵךְ teshukah as control or dominate in Gen 3:16. Waltke mentioned that in class. However, he then said that the cause for the increased divorce rate was because of women wanting to control their husbands, and abandoning their proper "role". I actually started to shake. In fact, I had a little talk with him. Not a good scene. <BR/><BR/>After all, why aren't divorces caused by men who rule their wives and finally the wives have enough equality in law to make good their escape? Well, I guess it can work either way. <BR/><BR/>I see in your paper that it sounds a bit more balanced, each person trying to boss the other and both are doing wrong. Not so one-sided. ;-) <BR/><BR/>I will post a link to your paper in my next scratches. Its very good. <BR/><BR/>My pastor is from the Sidney Diocese but I finally decided that I would have to leave that church. Too bad.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-43471574742513149932007-08-24T22:53:00.000-07:002007-08-24T22:53:00.000-07:00Hi Suzanne,I think that name-giving is fundamental...Hi Suzanne,<BR/><BR/>I think that name-giving is fundamentally a recognition of character, not an exercise of dominion. Dominion is expressed sometimes, but I don't think it is supported by the context of Gen 2. The thesis argues that at length.<BR/><BR/>What I do also note is that many books like <I>Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood</I> find a number of aspects of Gen 1-3 which supposedly reflect the woman's subordination to the man (such as naming) but which are never picked up in the NT.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06742562181125859847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-75071795164027858682007-08-24T17:35:00.000-07:002007-08-24T17:35:00.000-07:00Hi Martin,I forgot that I had started reading your...Hi Martin,<BR/><BR/>I forgot that I had started reading your thesis a few weeks ago. I just now got to where you write,<BR/><BR/><I>The most striking example of name giving which cannot reflect dominion over the recipient of the name appears in Genesis 16:13. In this passage Hagar, who has fled from Sarai’s abuse, has had the angel of Yahweh speak to her. In response, she names Yahweh. The text reads:<BR/><BR/>ותקרא שם יהוה הדבר אליה אתה אל ראי<BR/><BR/>It would be entirely inappropriate to understand this text to be suggesting that Hagar somehow claimed authority over Yahweh. Rather, the explanation furnished in the text suggests that the name given to Yahweh by Hagar is based upon her observation of his character. Consequently this instance of naming reflects the character recognition aspect present in some of those instances in the second group, although any notion of dominion is conspicuously<BR/>absent.</I>Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-54252341195148737672007-08-24T16:21:00.000-07:002007-08-24T16:21:00.000-07:00And Hagar names Yahweh (Gen 16:13)...And Hagar names Yahweh (Gen 16:13)...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06742562181125859847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-26631854710549532962007-08-24T13:55:00.000-07:002007-08-24T13:55:00.000-07:00PS. The comment about Wolters belongs with the pre...PS. The comment about Wolters belongs with the previous post. I got a little mixed up.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-68192332014727126102007-08-24T13:36:00.000-07:002007-08-24T13:36:00.000-07:00And Naomi names Obed. I'm not sure why the naming ...And Naomi names Obed. I'm not sure why the naming thing gets mentioned but it is considered by some to be significant.<BR/><BR/>I have not really given much thought to translating κεφαλη as "source" before. However, I decided to read Grudem's paper on kephale, which I quote from here, and I am persuaded by his examples that the idea of using "source" deserves some thought. Grudem's paper is a good advocate for the use of "source" I thought. <BR/><BR/>Wolters may be a friend of Grudem's because Grudem writes in this paper,<BR/><BR/><I>Professor Al Wolters has pointed out to me in private correspondence (Dec. 7, 1997), however, that the<BR/>recognition that Herodotus 4:91 speaks of the “sources” of the Tearus River with the plural of kefale is rather standard in Greek lexicons in other languages than English.</I><BR/><BR/>I would guess that this was a friendly letter designed to help Grudem out.<BR/><BR/>BTW, the first version of Cyril's passage is done by the Kroegers and the second, of course, by Grudem. I did not find it particularly coherent myself. I had expected Grudem's Kepahle paper to be quite good from things that are said about it, but I found it to be on par with his other writings.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-60114291127653293642007-08-24T11:09:00.000-07:002007-08-24T11:09:00.000-07:00God names Adam. Adam names Eve. Eve names Cain, bu...God names Adam. Adam names Eve. Eve names Cain, but Adam names Seth. Most of the sons of Jacob are named by his wives. Both Rachel and Jacob name Benjamin, but the latter name prevails. Very rarely does a man name his wife. What does all this have to say about different patterns of "dominion" in the family?Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.com