tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post4384318266082131821..comments2023-10-20T07:28:50.948-07:00Comments on Better Bibles Blog: NET Bible Review 2Wayne Lemanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18024771201561767893noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-60275380742010873942007-05-30T06:52:00.000-07:002007-05-30T06:52:00.000-07:00I have to admit, this is one area I feel the NET b...I have to admit, this is one area I feel the NET bible notes/text have let me down...I agree with Suzanne, there does seem to be a bias here. At the very least the notes could more fully discuss the other options, as Suzanne has discussed.Alastairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05209977342876131154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-64053589171757250452007-05-28T10:25:00.000-07:002007-05-28T10:25:00.000-07:00Peter recommended:Wayne, I am concerned that the N...Peter recommended:<BR/><BR/><I>Wayne, I am concerned that the NET Bible team has named you as a translation consultant. Those who know who you work for could easily misunderstand this as a claim by the NET Bible team that you have given to their product a proper translation consultant check and approval of the kind recognised by well known Bible translation agencies. If this has not happened, you should not be listed as a translation consultant.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, Peter, you're right. I don't know how many people understand the term "translation consultant" in the way you and I do. And not very many people know me on the Internet. I'm not, like, a big name guy and I'd just as soon keep it that way. I suppose I could ask the NET team to change the way they refer to me to something like "Reviewer". I'll keep thinking about it.Wayne Lemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18024771201561767893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-14936333240828146202007-05-28T10:22:00.000-07:002007-05-28T10:22:00.000-07:00There are many NET Bible discussion forums accessi...There are many <A HREF="http://forum.bible.org/" REL="nofollow">NET Bible discussion forums</A> accessible from the NET Bible website.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure people would be welcome to raise some of the questions which have come up here on the appropriate forum there.Wayne Lemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18024771201561767893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-76473327631261565622007-05-28T04:38:00.000-07:002007-05-28T04:38:00.000-07:00Wayne, I am concerned that the NET Bible team has ...Wayne, I am concerned that the NET Bible team has named you as a translation consultant. Those who know who you work for could easily misunderstand this as a claim by the NET Bible team that you have given to their product a proper translation consultant check and approval of the kind recognised by well known Bible translation agencies. If this has not happened, you should not be listed as a translation consultant.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-23818304477309166472007-05-27T16:30:00.000-07:002007-05-27T16:30:00.000-07:00Dr. Qohelet, for your information my wife did not ...Dr. Qohelet, for your information my wife did not write the comment herself because she couldn't see why she should take time out from what she was involved in to type something that I was perfectly capable of doing on her behalf.<BR/>That you chose to interpret that in the way that you did merely displays your extreme prejudice & bias. <BR/>Ah well, at least people will be aware of that aforementioned prejudice and bias when next you choose to make a 'comment'.Glennsphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18157051195736064330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-2296529809831144672007-05-27T15:08:00.000-07:002007-05-27T15:08:00.000-07:00David,If, however, she wishes to persuade and inst...David,<BR/><BR/><I>If, however, she wishes to persuade and instruct people who currently hold a complementarian perspective</I><BR/><BR/>I am honoured by what you write here. I intend to post about Junia, possibly tomorrow, and I hope you will comment on that post.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-85506112758945893272007-05-27T13:41:00.000-07:002007-05-27T13:41:00.000-07:00I had no intention of being sarcastic when I poste...I had no intention of being sarcastic when I posted the link to the dictionary. I regret that it was perceived this way. We often resort to quoting dictionaries and lexicons here and I hope that this practice can continue with impunity. <BR/><BR/>The dictionary meanings hold us together as a linguistic community. It would be very sad if people felt they could not refer to a dictionary to clarify their comments. <BR/><BR/>I would also like to respect Glenn's right to talk things over with his wife and share those comments here.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-80156013113946571002007-05-27T13:27:00.000-07:002007-05-27T13:27:00.000-07:00David: Dr. Qohelet has accused Glennsp of hiding b...David: <BR/><I>Dr. Qohelet has accused Glennsp of hiding behind his wife, yet as I see it, Suzanne has left him no choice.</I><BR/><BR/>Interesting interpretation, but I can't really see it from her comments. She acknowledges men at a conference who were not as dessensitized, I don't think she's simply saying "it's a womyn thing, you wouldn't understand!" [burns bra, blah blah]. I could be wrong here, but I'm not getting that vibe.<BR/><BR/>As far as what Glennsp could do. here's a funny little idea: why not actually have his wife comment? Or does a woman remaining silent also entail that she can't even comment for herself on a blog? (I'm sorry. It's snarky, but that's how it looks.) It's just not good form for argumenting to have a third-party involved.<BR/><BR/>Anon: First, I'm a guy. Second, don't spirantize my tav. And third, pseudonimity is different from anonymity. This is my blogger account. You can see my blog, and guess my gmail based of my assumed name. You, however, are a complete mystery. Are you the same anon that's been here the whole time? Who knows! Sure, you can't google my home address with ease, but I've had friends who have gotten death threats from online stalkers and I don't really want to think of folks kidnapping my kids. So, I run with a nom de plume.<BR/><BR/>Back on topic, I still find suzanne's post fascinating. She gives links to particular articles I wouldn't have bothered to find otherwise. I think she did a good job at showing the impetus behind some of the NET's translation choices.JimGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03957555705589161155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-5112287983927816922007-05-27T12:19:00.000-07:002007-05-27T12:19:00.000-07:00I can hardly conceal my mirth at the wonderful iro...I can hardly conceal my mirth at the wonderful irony of someone who calls herself "Dr. Qoheleth" inveighing against those who are "hiding behind anonymity." I hope some day she learns the word h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y. Or maybe she'll get around to reading Matthew 7:1-5.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00471792031082544671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-84135683777038549072007-05-27T12:14:00.000-07:002007-05-27T12:14:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00471792031082544671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-76856108139943422412007-05-27T12:02:00.000-07:002007-05-27T12:02:00.000-07:00Sigh. If these discussions illustrate anything, it...Sigh. If these discussions illustrate anything, it is how quickly we depart from sound reason to resort to ad hominem attacks and declarations that this or that argument is somehow unfair or cowardly or insensitive.<BR/><BR/>Dr. Qohelet has accused Glennsp of hiding behind his wife, yet as I see it, Suzanne has left him no choice. Rather than recognizing that she overreacted to and misread much of what Wallace wrote, Suzanne implied that any man who couldn't see what she was so upset about must be "desensitized" to Wallace's sexism.<BR/><BR/>What is Glennsp left to do? He can either acquiesce in the face of the implied accusation of sexism; or he can turn to his wife and say, "Am I missing something here?" When he reports back that his wife also thought Suzanne overreacted and misread Wallace, he is then accused of hiding behind his wife!<BR/><BR/>This all serves to illustrate the point I tried to make to Suzanne at the very beginning. If she wants to preach to the choir of her fellow egalitarians, she may be able to continue to speak and write as she does, twisting the arguments of complementarian authors by ignoring much of what they write and deriving meanings they never intended from the rest.<BR/><BR/>If, however, she wishes to persuade and instruct people who currently hold a complementarian perspective, she must keep her emotions in check and do her best to understand what they mean when they use certain terms or make certain arguments. Only then will she avoid looking like she is merely tearing down straw men of her own construction.David Langhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10670925456150974443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-11734253047892611062007-05-27T11:22:00.000-07:002007-05-27T11:22:00.000-07:00Very nice post. I have often been confounded by ce...Very nice post. I have often been confounded by certain tendencies in the NET Bible's translation in regards to women. Having some of Wallace's other statements in regards to women is quite helpful. All I've really known is that the project seems to be unofficially linked to DTS.<BR/><BR/>Wallace's original comments and those of Glennsp remind me strangely of Monty Python's <I>Life of Brian</I>: "I am Brian of Nazareth and so is my wife!" Really folks, hiding behind anonymity or your "wife"? It boggles the mind.<BR/><BR/>Once again, great post.JimGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03957555705589161155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-19299032139770991642007-05-27T06:06:00.000-07:002007-05-27T06:06:00.000-07:00Oh yes, my wife found your sarcastic response (dic...Oh yes, my wife found your sarcastic response (dictionary links), shall we say, unnecessary.<BR/>She is well aware of the meanings of the word in question, it was your refusal to take on board the meaning outlined in the article that she found strange and, shall we say, deliberate.Glennsphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18157051195736064330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-367167480005184252007-05-27T06:03:00.000-07:002007-05-27T06:03:00.000-07:00You protest too much and create problems where non...You protest too much and create problems where none exist on the basis that they must exist because you say they do, ummmmmmGlennsphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18157051195736064330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-53696817027779032492007-05-27T01:14:00.000-07:002007-05-27T01:14:00.000-07:00I didn't realize at first that I was going to find...I didn't realize at first that I was going to find all this. I had assumed from some other things that it wasn't that bad. Everything just added up. <BR/><BR/>The really sad part is that I like Wallace's work on text criticism. It seems even worse to think that he can do some really good stuff in one area and then this.<BR/><BR/>I know that I have messed up the review. I regret that. <BR/><BR/>But, once again, as with the ESV, there are some things that are so shocking to me, I just don't know how to handle it. Maybe when I am through reacting to the sheer misery of finding women objectified over and over, I will be able to write in a more neutral manner.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-72961282588010694812007-05-27T00:48:00.000-07:002007-05-27T00:48:00.000-07:00You can certainly criticize Wallace, but cloaking ...You can certainly criticize Wallace, but cloaking it in a review of the NET Bible seems inappropriateanonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00471792031082544671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-31577419429100744872007-05-26T22:44:00.000-07:002007-05-26T22:44:00.000-07:00Anon,Thank you for that. I'm working on it. I ofte...Anon,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for that. I'm working on it. <BR/><BR/>I often assume that people will read the articles in question and set the quotes in context. It seems to take up too much space to provide the context. Once again, I am not trying to hide it. I link to it. However, I will try to provide more context next time. <BR/><BR/>I am not sure whether it is accurate to call this an ad hominem attack, when I quote directly from someone's published work that bears directly on content included in a Bible note. <BR/><BR/>Possibly there is a significant difference between the US and Canada, but I don't think this kind of writing is acceptable here - certainly not in the secular workplace. There seems to be a cultural difference. I am not convinced that the kind of writing which I quote should be permitted to pass without censure. <BR/><BR/>However, it is worth considering that others think this kind of thing is acceptable. That provides me with much food for thought and suggests that I should restrict my travel itinerary accordingly.;-) <BR/><BR/>I will have to leave it with this. <BR/><BR/>I personally feel very uncomfortable with this kind of discourse. It seems inhospitable. It somehow makes me feel that women are objects of examination. It was extremely upsetting for me to read the article in question.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-7744676534952986302007-05-26T22:18:00.000-07:002007-05-26T22:18:00.000-07:00I believe that if you have a point to make, you co...I believe that if you have a point to make, you could have made it with quotes in proper context and without ad hominem attacks.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00471792031082544671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-75718557180941704322007-05-26T22:12:00.000-07:002007-05-26T22:12:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00471792031082544671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-78486183134969886182007-05-26T20:55:00.000-07:002007-05-26T20:55:00.000-07:00First, let me say that I assumed that people would...First, let me say that I assumed that people would read the notes. I know they are online. I am not trying to hide them. <BR/><BR/>By using the word deaconess, the notes are suggesting both English meanings, but in the Greek only one meaning is in view. So by using a different English word, an ambiguity is introduced that is not in Greek. <BR/><BR/>So I do believe that in a subtle way, as I said, the notes are less technical than I would expect, and are suggestive of certain things that are not part of the Greek. <BR/><BR/>[This comment was removed and edited to correct a typo.]Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-31558303971652301702007-05-26T18:28:00.000-07:002007-05-26T18:28:00.000-07:00See the dictionary and here.See the <A HREF="http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=define%3Agynecology&btnG=Search&meta=" REL="nofollow">dictionary</A> and <A HREF="http://powerscourt.blogspot.com/2006/06/john-g-stackhouse.html" REL="nofollow">here.</A>Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-81202693436201947042007-05-26T17:37:00.000-07:002007-05-26T17:37:00.000-07:00My wife doesn't follow your reasoning regarding th...My wife doesn't follow your reasoning regarding the term 'gynaecology'.<BR/>She thinks you are trying to manufacture a mountain out of a very, very small mole hill.<BR/>Also, having read the article in question, she is unsure how you managed to arrive at the conclusions you have stated as they bare little if any relation to the actual article.Glennsphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18157051195736064330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-27914690863851138042007-05-26T17:09:00.000-07:002007-05-26T17:09:00.000-07:00the NET Bible has failed to note a preferred readi...<I>the NET Bible has failed to note a preferred reading of yours</I><BR/><BR/>That is what I am saying - the notes do not provide the full range. They don't mention προστατις at all.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-14628632964733004612007-05-26T17:00:00.000-07:002007-05-26T17:00:00.000-07:00If you are simply going to repeat your arguments, ...If you are simply going to repeat your arguments, then I can repeat my statements:<BR/><BR/><I>In many cases, your criticisms are negative -- that the NET Bible has failed to note a preferred reading of yours. I believe that imposing a burden on a Bible that it agree in every place with your judgment and opinions is a test to which any Bible would fail.</I>anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00471792031082544671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-29725686518698205362007-05-26T16:49:00.000-07:002007-05-26T16:49:00.000-07:00Similarly, in your criticism of Romans 16:2, you f...<I>Similarly, in your criticism of Romans 16:2, you fail to note that every translation (with the exception of Young's Literal Translation) fails to use "leader" here -- and with a good reason, since using it here would imply that Paul was a follower of Phoebe, which seems to be uncharacteristic of Paul. Even the vacillating Amplified Bible does not mention this as alternative meaning here.</I><BR/><BR/>Although there is a great deal of discussion to be had concering the meaning of the word προστατις the NET Bible simply leaves it unmentioned. The notes are deficient. It is not simply that the reading in the NET Bible provides less status than for example the TNIV, but that the notes don't even mention the wide range of meaning for προστατις. <BR/><BR/>Considering that fact that the ESV has "patron" and the NET Bible "great help" I continue to see this as a serious lack in the NET Bible notes. I am critiquing the notes - they are neither adequate nor carefully written when it comes to these pasages.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.com