tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post5422425627341818999..comments2023-10-20T07:28:50.948-07:00Comments on Better Bibles Blog: Luke 17:21 In your midstWayne Lemanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18024771201561767893noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-63210521580413080952007-04-16T07:01:00.000-07:002007-04-16T07:01:00.000-07:00Ruud, "the kingdom of God is within your reach" is...Ruud, "<I>the kingdom of God is within your reach</I>" is good English, and good theology, but I don't think it is good translation of this verse, which unlike some others must mean that the kingdom has already come.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-73063795937599740682007-04-15T23:38:00.000-07:002007-04-15T23:38:00.000-07:00The Nieuwe Bijbelvertaling (NBV, Dutch) has (Luke ...The Nieuwe Bijbelvertaling (NBV, Dutch) has (Luke 17:21):<BR/><BR/>Maar weet wel: het koninkrijk van God ligt binnen uw bereik.<BR/><BR/>[But know: the kingdom of God is within your reach.]<BR/>(I think this is bad English, but the Dutch sounds very natural, I think you get the point "it is reachable for you".)<BR/><BR/>What do you think?Ruud Vermeijhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06947453585488967314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-88215555473293867132007-04-15T16:40:00.000-07:002007-04-15T16:40:00.000-07:00Micky, thank you for your great testimony.Micky, thank you for your great testimony.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-10453730542247545162007-04-14T14:19:00.000-07:002007-04-14T14:19:00.000-07:00About 3 years ago I dropped into a black hole – fo...About 3 years ago I dropped into a black hole – four months of absolute terror. I wanted to end my life, but somehow [Holy Spirit], I reached out to a friend who took me to hospital. I had three visits [hospital] in four months – I actually thought I was in hell. I imagine I was going through some sort of metamorphosis [mental, physical & spiritual]. I had been seeing a therapist [1994] on a regular basis, up until this point in time. I actually thought I would be locked away – but the hospital staff was very supportive [I had no control over my process]. I was released from hospital 16th September 1994, but my fear, pain & shame had only subsided a little. I remember this particular morning waking up [home] & my process would start up again [fear, pain, & shame]. No one could help me, not even my therapist [I was terrified]. I asked Jesus Christ to have mercy on me & forgive me my sins. Slowly, all my fear has dissipated & I believe Jesus delivered me from my “psychological prison.” I am a practicing Catholic & the Holy Spirit is my friend & strength; every day since then has been a joy & blessing. I deserve to go to hell for the life I have led, but Jesus through His sacrifice on the cross, delivered me from my inequities. John 3: 8, John 15: 26, are verses I can relate to, organically. He’s a real person who is with me all the time. I have so much joy & peace in my life, today, after a childhood spent in orphanages [England & Australia]. God LOVES me so much. Fear, pain, & shame, are no longer my constant companions. I just wanted to share my experience with you [Luke 8: 16 – 17].<BR/><BR/>Peace Be With You<BR/>MickyMickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10640944264646960474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-34713356091681684952007-04-14T13:16:00.000-07:002007-04-14T13:16:00.000-07:00I wonder, Peter, if this is an example of how the ...I wonder, Peter, if this is an example of how the language is evolving differently on your side of the pond than on ours.<BR/><BR/>To my American ears, "among you" and "in your midst" sound like an <I>almost</I> identical meaning, but "in your midst" sounds better. British ears apparently prefer "among you". "Midst" doesn't apparently have the same archaic feeling for us as it does for you.<BR/><BR/>But I don't know why. ;-)GZimmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00343987749136219839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-87614110550592482572007-04-14T11:34:00.000-07:002007-04-14T11:34:00.000-07:00But since "you" in Luke 17:21 and 1 Corinthians 3:...<I>But since "you" in Luke 17:21 and 1 Corinthians 3:16 is not immediately clearly plural (although the added "yourselves" in the latter verse implies that), the meaning is by no means immediately obvious.</I><BR/><BR/>That is the whole point. The "you" is plural in the Greek and only the TNIV has made that plain. In any case, I find "midst" to be awkward and I think that it comes from the KJV, but it is familiar because, I think, of the expression "a stranger in your midst". <BR/><BR/>Maybe the TNIV is moving in the direction of eliminating "in your midst" which I don't think would be a bad idea. Still it is better by a long shot than the more awkward "in the midst of you".Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-61922117000724484462007-04-14T10:53:00.000-07:002007-04-14T10:53:00.000-07:00Well, "in the midst" certainly doesn't always mean...Well, "in the midst" certainly doesn't always mean "among", for example, as confirmed by <A HREF="http://www.answers.com/midst&r=67" REL="nofollow">the American Heritage dictionary</A>, you can say "in the midst of the desert" or "in the midst of the war"; or from <A HREF="http://www.tniv.info/bible/wordsearch.php?word_request=midst&submit=Search&match_type=all&selected_version=tniv&limit=10&sortby=bookorder&limit_select=span&start_book=1&end_book=73" REL="nofollow">TNIV</A>, "in the midst of their uncleanness" (Leviticus 16:16), "In the midst of his plenty" (Job 20:22) etc etc. Indeed most TNIV occurrences of "in the midst" cannot mean "among" and must mean more like "within". Now I accept that with a plural noun its meaning is more probably "among" than "within". But since "you" in Luke 17:21 and 1 Corinthians 3:16 is not immediately clearly plural (although the added "yourselves" in the latter verse implies that), the meaning is by no means immediately obvious. I honestly can't see why the TNIV translators didn't use the clearer and more natural "among" in these two cases if that is the meaning which they wanted to make clear and unambiguous. Now you suggest that there might be a third alternative, but I don't see one, unless perhaps it is that the authors might have intended both meanings as some kind of word play. Well, that is possible, and in that case perhaps the ambiguous "in your midst".<BR/><BR/>I now note that the British TNIV has "among you" at 1 Corinthians 3:16, in contrast to "in your midst" in the American edition. But the British edition does have "in your midst" at Luke 17:21, with "within you" in a footnote.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-53833410503667309372007-04-14T09:28:00.000-07:002007-04-14T09:28:00.000-07:00I disagree - I think that "in your midst" means "a...I disagree - I think that "in your midst" means "among you" but is supposed to be clearer. <BR/>I certainly do not think it is fence-sitting.<BR/><BR/>However, it does sound archaic and the question remains, does it have clear meaning. I am not sure about that. <BR/><BR/>I take it that you feel there are only two options - "among you" and "within you". Possibly.<BR/><BR/>I know that I was shocked to see that the ESV had replaced "like sheep among wolves" with "like sheep in the midst of wolves" Matt. 10:16.<BR/><BR/>The TNIV uses "midst" very sparingly - 26 times and the ESV over 250 times. FWIWSuzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-2809810966073939392007-04-14T03:46:00.000-07:002007-04-14T03:46:00.000-07:00But what do the TNIV and other translators mean by...But what do the TNIV and other translators mean by "in your midst", or for that matter "in the midst of you"? To me "midst" is an archaic word and I really don't know if this is supposed to mean "inside you" or "among you". And the <A HREF="http://www.answers.com/midst&r=67" REL="nofollow">dictionary definitions</A> don't help. I can only think that these translators use this archaic word in an attempt to sit on the fence between the two different interpretations. Such attempts usually don't work, and this one doesn't.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.com