tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post810723186154152372..comments2023-10-20T07:28:50.948-07:00Comments on Better Bibles Blog: Generic "man" being misunderstoodWayne Lemanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18024771201561767893noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-55787420154571211442007-06-25T07:35:00.000-07:002007-06-25T07:35:00.000-07:00Orthodox, this verse certainly does apply to littl...Orthodox, this verse certainly does apply to little children. The Hebrew word <I>'adam</I> does not refer only to adults and has never been understood as doing so. Murder of little children is still murder. (And I won't follow up the obvious implications concerning abortion.) As for murder by little children, there are of course serious issues concerning how far the responsibility for that is the parents', but there is surely no suggestion that it is OK for children to kill others.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-18081820814064410712007-06-24T22:29:00.000-07:002007-06-24T22:29:00.000-07:00What about little children? Does the verses follow...What about little children? Does the verses following apply to little children too?<BR/><BR/>Now the TNIV has got human being, it must apply to them also. But that is far from clear in the original.<BR/><BR/>So is the TNIV really more accurate? How long till we find some blogger who reads the TNIV and makes some assumption that it must apply to little children?orthodoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09445301151975209564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-90328362789438106032007-06-18T20:59:00.000-07:002007-06-18T20:59:00.000-07:00The TNIV is certainly no panacea with many problem...The TNIV is certainly no panacea with many problems of its own. When reading in public I think it is best to use a gender neutral translation. People in the pews are not trained in these things and they need to understand that scripture is not just written to men.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14368791607689982645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-39267119222583774462007-06-16T23:24:00.000-07:002007-06-16T23:24:00.000-07:00Actually, Glennsp, I don't see using human instead...Actually, Glennsp, I don't see using <I>human</I> instead of <I>man</I> as a simplification, but merely better communication as our language stands.<BR/><BR/>And you confuse the subject because this isn't an issue of misunderstanding the Bible, but misunderstanding out-of-date translation.<BR/><BR/>We have no argument that many still understand the generic sense of <I>man</I>, and I noted in my post that I'm still amazed that such a thing happens. But the answer to your question is really simple. We change something that is still understood by many because <I>some</I> will misunderstand masculine universals in today's culture. Our goal should be to translate for clarity, accuracy, and maximum understanding.<BR/><BR/>If this was just about me, I'd be content with the NASB on the formal end of the spectrum and the REB on the dynamic end. But in the bigger picture, I realize that it's not about me. I want the Bible to be translated in the most accurate and clearest English possible for the widest possible dissemination.<BR/><BR/>Don't you?R. Mansfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12333586197235312918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-72697799860428502502007-06-16T08:48:00.000-07:002007-06-16T08:48:00.000-07:00R mansfield, people misunderstand the word of God ...R mansfield, people misunderstand the word of God no matter how hard you strain to supposedly 'simplify' it.<BR/>The only way to remove all misunderstanding is to remove the Bible itself, which is obviously not an option.<BR/>Also, as I said, I know many who do still understand the generic sense and would therefore ask "why change something that is still understood by so many?"Glennsphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18157051195736064330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-41909465371847858712007-06-15T18:35:00.000-07:002007-06-15T18:35:00.000-07:00But Glenn, why would you want to have a translatio...But Glenn, why would you want to have a translation of the Bible that you know even some will misunderstand?<BR/><BR/>Which is ultimately clearer?<BR/><BR/><I>“Then God said, “Let us make man in our image” (Genesis 1:26 NIV)</I><BR/><BR/>or<BR/><BR/><I>“Let us make human beings in our image” (Genesis 1:26 TNIV)</I><BR/><BR/>Some will misunderstand the first version, but no one will misunderstand the second. So why favor it?<BR/><BR/>To hold on to a particular wording is to deify the language--to say that the English is immutable. In my opinion, that is entirely unnecessary.R. Mansfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12333586197235312918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-79758732194082693792007-06-15T17:18:00.000-07:002007-06-15T17:18:00.000-07:00Just because a few misunderstand the generic sense...Just because a few misunderstand the generic sense (where used generically in scripture) does not prove that the term is no longer understood generally.<BR/>Even in the media it is still quite common to find it used in its generic sense.<BR/>It may have lost its generic sense in your circle, but that does not extrapolate automatically to the rest of the world.<BR/>In the non Christian/Christian circles I move in it is still understood very clearly.Glennsphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18157051195736064330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-20566251659319390232007-06-15T15:34:00.000-07:002007-06-15T15:34:00.000-07:00Yes, a pledge has been made that NIV will not be w...Yes, a pledge has been made that NIV will not be withdrawn completely. But there is nothing in that pledge which commits the publishers to continue to promote it or bring out new editions. Probably all their pledge obliges them to do is to keep one edition of NIV in print. And I would have no problem with that, for the sake of diehards and collectors of historic versions. But I do think that, for the sake of accurate understanding of the Bible as well as for long term sales, they would do better to phase out promotion of NIV and put their efforts unambiguously into TNIV.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-41353507070249990302007-06-15T15:07:00.000-07:002007-06-15T15:07:00.000-07:00I saw this statement on a blog recently, Your past...I saw this statement on a blog recently, <BR/><BR/><I>Your pastor might wear "cool" clothes, have a "cool" blog, or be in the process of trying to make God and Jesus androgynous, but God seems to care that his people are being led by capable men who lead the rest of God's people in bringing the Kingdom to their local neighborhood in all its forms.</I><BR/><BR/>which I think shows the same confusion. The author seems to be alluding to 2 Tim. 2:2 but he believes that the Greek refers to male human beings.<BR/><BR/>Of course, this confusion can be found in the recent ESV and NET Bibles, both of which freely translate <I>anthropos</I> with either "men" or "people" as they deem appropriate. I feel that any translation which predates the last century should not have a problem, "men" usually meant "people".Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-35115869033516475182007-06-15T14:28:00.000-07:002007-06-15T14:28:00.000-07:00I have no new info to add, but I agree with both R...I have no new info to add, but I agree with both Rick & iyov. <BR/><BR/>Like Rick, it amazes me to see people misunderstand in this way. Context generally, if not always, makes it clear if it is generic or not.<BR/><BR/>And perhaps I need to brush up on my CSG history and guidelines, but I thought they weren't to pull the NIV from the shelves.<BR/><BR/>Though if these misunderstandings are so much more common than I realized, Peter's recommendation might not be a bad one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-43336412061537734562007-06-15T14:22:00.000-07:002007-06-15T14:22:00.000-07:00The sooner IBS and Zondervan phase out NIV and rep...<I>The sooner IBS and Zondervan phase out NIV and replace it by TNIV, the better.</I><BR/><BR/>Is that on the table? I had thought that they had pledged to keep the NIV in print indefinitely -- is your understanding different?Iyovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16900943829679088001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-25908563662367722782007-06-15T13:15:00.000-07:002007-06-15T13:15:00.000-07:00I'm always amazed at this kind of misunderstanding...I'm always amazed at this kind of misunderstanding, but it's case in point as to why masculine universals are inappropriate in contemporary communication. I've told the story many times of the high school students who thought only males were made in God's image because of Gen 1:26 in the NIV.<BR/><BR/>It's examples like these which fuel my conviction to only use inclusive language translations in public. Even if a majority can make the distinction, there's no sense in misleading anyone unnecessarily.R. Mansfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12333586197235312918noreply@blogger.com