tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post8502746094204877891..comments2023-10-20T07:28:50.948-07:00Comments on Better Bibles Blog: Torah translations: Red-StuffWayne Lemanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18024771201561767893noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-26642527054166541412007-04-13T08:25:00.000-07:002007-04-13T08:25:00.000-07:00Soil-man??Soil-man??Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-45816046070565862442007-04-13T08:05:00.000-07:002007-04-13T08:05:00.000-07:00This might seem a bit off-topic, but what do you t...This might seem a bit off-topic, but what do you think about James Tabor's somewhat similar approach in his Original Bible Project (his Transparent English Bible)?Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15947647596648031553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-29901898419441809032007-04-11T14:18:00.000-07:002007-04-11T14:18:00.000-07:00OK, Wayne, I'm happier if you know his identity. A...OK, Wayne, I'm happier if you know his identity. After all there is a possibility that you could get into trouble if he wrote something inappropriate and you couldn't identify him. I'm thinking not so much of death threats (although that happened on one blog) as breach of copyright, for which you would probably be held responsible.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-72771765224977565162007-04-11T11:07:00.000-07:002007-04-11T11:07:00.000-07:00Peter wrote:I would be happy with the situation if...Peter wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>I would be happy with the situation if you could assure us that your real name and identity is known to the blog owner but is being kept confidential.</I><BR/><BR/>Peter, I know the poster's real name and identity, and invited him to post on the Torah translations which is an area of expertise for him.<BR/><BR/><I>But I am not at all happy to interact with someone who insists on complete anonymity.</I><BR/><BR/>I understand that feeling, but, in this case, respect and honor Anon.'s desire to remain anonymous.Wayne Lemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18024771201561767893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-44207296561824107232007-04-11T04:55:00.000-07:002007-04-11T04:55:00.000-07:00Anon, thanks for this, but I wish you didn't have ...Anon, thanks for this, but I wish you didn't have to be anonymous. I note that Tim O'Reilly has called for <A HREF="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6540385.stm" REL="nofollow">a blogging code</A> which would ban anonymous comments. I would like to see that code on this blog.<BR/><BR/>Well, I see that in fact already "<I> This blog does not allow anonymous comments.</I>" You are in fact not technically anonymous, just a person with the pseudonym "anonymous" who has made his or her profile not available. I consider that to be an abuse of the Blogger system, and would not allow it on my own blog. I know that letters to newspapers, at least here in the UK, often have "Name and address supplied" written at the bottom. I would be happy with the situation if you could assure us that your real name and identity is known to the blog owner but is being kept confidential. But I am not at all happy to interact with someone who insists on complete anonymity.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-80297133824566226262007-04-10T20:56:00.000-07:002007-04-10T20:56:00.000-07:00Elberfelder even has the inverted "da sagte Jacob"...Elberfelder even has the inverted "da sagte Jacob". Doesn't that sound just like the Hebrew! You have inspired me to work on my Hebrew again, Anon. It's so lovely to compare the sounds of the words and phrases in the original with the translation. Excuse my repeated comments but I do enjoy language for its own sake. It is very good to have this linguistic tradition brought into English by Fox.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-79462155035252786952007-04-10T20:00:00.000-07:002007-04-10T20:00:00.000-07:00However, I note that B-R is a translation that us...However, I note that B-R is a translation that uses fewer paratactic "ands" than almost any other version.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-10327857519417258062007-04-10T19:58:00.000-07:002007-04-10T19:58:00.000-07:00I thought it would be interesting to trace this de...I thought it would be interesting to trace this development from Luther through to B-R. <BR/><BR/>First, Luther - unremarkable, in straightforward German as one would expect. <BR/><BR/><I>und sprach zu Jakob: <BR/>Laß mich kosten das rote Gericht; denn ich bin müde. <BR/>Daher heißt er Edom. <BR/>Aber Jakob sprach: <BR/>Verkaufe mir heute deine Erstgeburt.</I><BR/><BR/>I was more surprised at the Elberfelder/Darby Bible, very evocative and certainly marking a fhalf-way point between the two. B-R owes much to the E/D. <BR/><BR/><I>Und Esau sagte zu Jakob: <BR/>Laß mich doch schnell essen von dem Roten, dem Roten da, <BR/>denn ich bin erschöpft! <BR/>Darum gab man ihm den Namen Edom.<BR/>Da sagte Jakob: <BR/>Verkaufe mir heute dein Erstgeburtsrecht!</I><BR/><BR/>Heré is the Buber-Rosenzweig. <BR/><BR/><I>30 Essaw sprach zu Jaakob:<BR/>Laß mich doch schlingen von dem Roten, dem Roten da,<BR/>denn ich bin ermattet.<BR/>Darum ruft man ihn mit Namen Edom, Roter. Jaakob sprach:<BR/>Verkaufe mir gleich des Tags dein Erstlingtum.</I><BR/><BR/>So there is a transition. I was not aware before of the role played by the Elberfelder version in this process. Actually I havent really paid much attention to the Elberfelder Bible before this. B-R must have been familiar with it. This is very interesting.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-62354485229179817422007-04-10T16:12:00.000-07:002007-04-10T16:12:00.000-07:00Complimenti e Bravo Anonymous.That was a wonderful...Complimenti e Bravo Anonymous.<BR/>That was a wonderful post and I look forward to the next two. I actually followed the narrative with a copy of Die Schrift in hand. I must say, I think Die Schrift does a slightly better job than Fox's translation. I especially appreciated the point about the read-out-loudability of a translation. It's probably why I'm a fan of the Jerusalem Bible.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00123729422140010455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-21626523412864213402007-04-10T13:56:00.000-07:002007-04-10T13:56:00.000-07:00BEAUTIFUL! These are the kinds of translation iss...BEAUTIFUL! These are the kinds of translation issues that I, as a Biblical Hebrew student, am most concerned about. Many of the examples given in this entry speak for themselves, no more examples need be given. Nevertheless, such examples are far from being rare -- on the contrary, one might say that nearly every few lines of a narrative in Hebrew (especially in the rich narratives in Genesis) contain such stark contrasts between the <B> "good-english-man's" </B> way-of-talking-rendering of the translation (I'd like to call this: sanitized rendering), AND the far more interesting, potent, and <B> REAL LIFE feel </B> of the original Hebrew. <BR/><BR/>As in the first example given (Gn 25), the one seems to bring you into their tent, as you listen to a REAL life conversation between two brothers. The other comes along and makes sure that it all could be read by a church elder with nearly all emotion stripped from his voice (of course the translations don't go this far, but, for the point...). This is a dirty shame! Moses was a far better, and more interesting, story teller. It seems that the goal has almost been to take the DRAMA out of the story-narrative. <BR/><BR/>Much of what I'm am saying here is a reflection of what you already said above Wayne, like: ("<BR/>By and large, conventional modern translations ignore these issues (although they usually point out some of the word-play in footnotes.) They focus their attention on what the <B> meaning of the text </B> .... But earlier translators felt obliged to capture it in their translations. ").<BR/><BR/>One summary point of what's at issue here (but not entirely) is the failure to render SYNTACTICAL meaning. That is, even though we are saying that these English translations focused on meaning rather than capture the (in my words) real-life feel and drama of the original, A good case can be made that failure to render blatantly made syntactical choices by the author/story-teller -- IS TO FAIL in rendering the meaning! I won't make this any longer with a bunch of examples, but considering the first quote of Gn 25:30-31, there is no doubt that Fox's translation is FAR CLOSER to the Hebrew meaning. And yet, the drama HARDLY comes out in the 'sanctioned' (boring) version (no offense anyone, outside of this one point I have very much to say in praise, with gratitude, for the great works of the big translations). Even the word choice is much closer, 'give me a gulp' is definitely closer to the Hebrew. But what excuse can the NAS, the NIV, the NRSV, etc, have for not even rendering the double expression?!?! (The NET version at least doubles it, but even then (as just a very slight complaint), they still make it more 'polite' english: "Feed me some of the red stuff – <B> yes </B>, this red stuff –" ... notice how much more polite and proper this is by including "yes," than Fox's much better rendering: "Pray give me a gulp of <B> the red-stuff, that red-stuff!, </B>"!!! <BR/><BR/>This is a good example illustrating that just because someone pines for more 'literal' translations, does not have to mean more archaic. The literal text actually IS much more dramatic, already, we just have to stop trying to 'sanitize' it.<BR/><BR/>I said I would not give examples, but it just comes to my mind that one of my champion examples of such issues is actually only a few verses after the passage we've been looking at: Gen 25:34. <BR/><BR/>NAS has: Then Jacob gave Esau bread and lentil stew; and he ate and drank, and rose and went on his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright. <BR/><BR/>I this example, I don't know if the main translations can have done any better, (without going well past their given limits), but the fact is, this passage is absolutely LOADED with syntactical meaning. What is phenomenal is that there are FIVE vav-consecutives in a row in the Hebrew, without even a single word between each one of them. This is extremely unussual, the author is intending to make a very strong point, but that is only slightly evident in the translations, (as seen in NAS's above). <BR/><BR/>Again, I don't know how a translator could actually render the power of this syntax without going almost periphrastic -- but here is my attempt at something that at least gets the point across of what the syntax is saying: <BR/><BR/>"But as for Jacob, for his part, he did then give Esau bread, and lentil stew. [[So what do you think Esau did, do you think he mourned, do you think he felt any regret? Well, I'll tell you what HE did:} HE thus ATE, and he DRANK, .... and he GOT UP, and HE LEFT! And HE, [Ahhh!,] [that] Esau DESPISED his birthright as such!<BR/>(Caps should be read with emphasis, dots indicate one should pause, this is certainly how I would read the Hebrew words! The masoretic accents put a strong emphsis on DRANK, and on LEFT, its up and down, ... He ATE and he Drank! (pause), and he got UP, and he LEFT! (pause), and he, that Esau, [thus] DESPISED HIS birthright.<BR/><BR/>I just now did a Bible Works search on this syntax. Let this illustrate how strongly put the syntax is! In the entire Old Testament, there is only ONE other instance of FIVE vav consecutives used right in a row like this (2 Chronicles 28:15). This story teller was making a very emphatic point. (It sure helps to appreciate Hebrews 12:16 better). Well, sorry for the length of this, but I sure like to see that this issue is being discussed and brain stormed, so thanks for bringing it up in this blog Wayne.nikoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10308763885797575062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-44538388452783711252007-04-10T08:20:00.000-07:002007-04-10T08:20:00.000-07:00Thank you Anonymous,It is great to get a closer lo...Thank you Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>It is great to get a closer look at these translations and epecially to have the focus shift to the Hebrew scriptures.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.com