tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post8979210785359820196..comments2023-10-20T07:28:50.948-07:00Comments on Better Bibles Blog: Where angels fear to treadWayne Lemanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18024771201561767893noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-49228119398378751832008-04-26T11:44:00.000-07:002008-04-26T11:44:00.000-07:00Thanks, Geoff. I only tried looking on Fresh Air, ...Thanks, Geoff. I only tried looking on <I>Fresh Air</I>, but the link there was dead.Richard A. Rhodeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14227550014596898280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-73897974957900626332008-04-26T11:40:00.000-07:002008-04-26T11:40:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Richard A. Rhodeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14227550014596898280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-39076873365400274422008-04-25T16:38:00.000-07:002008-04-25T16:38:00.000-07:00Nice. Seehttp://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~nunbe...Nice. <BR/><BR/>See<BR/><BR/>http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~nunberg/ipse.htmlAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03764976127224383725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-72225574359466247622008-04-25T08:56:00.000-07:002008-04-25T08:56:00.000-07:00Kurk,I'm running out the door to hear Robert Alter...Kurk,<BR/>I'm running out the door to hear Robert Alter speak, but you've brought up the passage that I think best illustrates what a translation should sound like if you really want the NT to be Jewish sounding.<BR/><BR/>The summary would be: Joshua's <I>gonze mishpuchah</I> shows up, because people have said he's <I>meshuggah</I>. They want he should come home. etc., etc. <BR/><BR/>You see, I was raised in a Jewish neighborhood. All those names and names of things that Barnstone leans on to emphasize the Jewishness of the NT do nothing for me. And I"m put off by the underlying quasi-Elizabethan English. But a few carefully placed Yiddishisms, and it's clear to me that it's very Jewish and not unnatural at all.Richard A. Rhodeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14227550014596898280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-648489496654343262008-04-24T18:35:00.000-07:002008-04-24T18:35:00.000-07:00The class that really should be carried on in Koin...<I>The class that really should be carried on in Koine (or Hebrew for that matter) is Family Counseling.</I><BR/><BR/>:) ! !<BR/><BR/>(וַיֹּאמְרוּ שָׁאֹול שָׁאַל־הָאִישׁ לָנוּ וּלְמֹולַדְתֵּנוּ לֵאמֹר הַעֹוד אֲבִיכֶם חַי הֲיֵשׁ לָכֶם אָח וַנַגֶּד־לֹו עַל־פִּי הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה הֲיָדֹועַ נֵדַע כִּי יֹאמַר הֹורִידוּ אֶת־אֲחִיכֶם׃)<BR/><BR/>ὅστις γὰρ ἂν ποιήσῃ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ πατρός μου τοῦ ἐν οὐρανοῖς αὐτός μου ἀδελφὸς καὶ ἀδελφὴ καὶ μήτηρ ἐστίνJ. K. Gaylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07600312868663460988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-17976366344414686552008-04-24T18:10:00.000-07:002008-04-24T18:10:00.000-07:00Randall,You've given me enough to post on several ...Randall,<BR/>You've given me enough to post on several times over. (BTW, I loved the parable, although there is this thing about the NT that it thrives on translation, in a way that the Kuran or the Rig Vedas don't. The OT is less so. It may have to do with how much of the particular Scripture is consciously literary.)<BR/><BR/>From my point of view, the real problem is not teaching Greek in Greek and Hebrew in Hebrew -- although that's a great start. Most of the vocabulary that one needs to know is about living and relating. The class that really should be carried on in Koine (or Hebrew for that matter) is Family Counseling.Richard A. Rhodeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14227550014596898280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-62374085922443959852008-04-24T17:32:00.000-07:002008-04-24T17:32:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Richard A. Rhodeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14227550014596898280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-25425274480786507042008-04-24T12:06:00.000-07:002008-04-24T12:06:00.000-07:00Several of you have asked about having a sense of ...Several of you have asked about having a sense of when you get there. That's hard to say.<BR/><BR/>Let me give you one.<BR/><BR/>There is a turning point in language learning when you start to react to words, instead of figuring them out. You know you've reached this level when you have the experience of reading (or hearing) something you understood completely, and you say to yourself, "Oh, so THAT's how to say that!" because you realize you wouldn't have thought to say it that way in a million years.Richard A. Rhodeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14227550014596898280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-72809943619932775032008-04-24T11:58:00.000-07:002008-04-24T11:58:00.000-07:00I really want to speak Latin like Julio Iglesias.I really want to speak Latin like Julio Iglesias.David Kerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13140007604009678479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-42443013865343476632008-04-24T08:02:00.000-07:002008-04-24T08:02:00.000-07:00Several comments, but in different directions. On ...Several comments, but in different directions. <BR/><BR/>On learning 'dead languages' there are some easy litmus tests to see what is really going on. After five or twenty years can you tell someone what you did last week in the language of interest? If not, why not? See a Koine parable:<BR/>http://alefandomega.blogspot.com/<BR/>2008_01_01_archive.html<BR/>(url needs 'new line' deleted after<BR/>"...com/". Parable is item one, January 2008. See endnote below, too. <BR/><BR/>--when does one stop parsing? <BR/>when did one stop parsing German? Hopefully from the beginning as the language is being used in small pieces.<BR/><BR/>good point on materials and dead languages. one needs to get past materials. Yes, bilingual dictionaries do color the way in which learners think about texts. The field could use an ancient Greek-ancient Greek dictionary. Start using one of the languages and they start to have real meaning. (But it is a much longer process than most imagine as they start.) It is both amusing and revealing to listen to someone try to express themselves in Biblical Hebrew. It is pretty clear how much of the language is inside, pretty fast. (did I say that the process was long? It's probably longer.)<BR/><BR/>On the first century. yes they were speaking Greek instead of Latin and a lot of Hebrew instead of 'Aramaic-only'. [NB: the area was tri-lingual: tribal language was Hebrew (notice that the 2nd temple prophets spoke/wrote to the people in Hebrew, as well as the Prushim when discussing daily Jewish life up to 200CE and beyond), wider business language and former international government language was Aramaic, language of education and government was Greek. All three would have been heard regularly and are widely attested. (FWIW: Hebrew in two registers and Aramaic was a bit like someone growing up where they heard Spanish and French together.)<BR/>Those who control the multi-lingual discourse styles of Jewish narratives for the first century can recognize pretty quickly that the Jerusalem Church probably composed a 'divre-Yeshua' [if Papias' comment has historical roots] in a Qumranesque, Maccabeanesque literary Hebrew.<BR/><BR/>Well, the above ought to leave plenty of loose ends for pondering. When church schools teach the languages of the canon 90% or more in the language being studied and when the professors can communicate with each other in the language--that is the day that we take our sources seriously.<BR/>Interested in change? Drop by some summer. Visiting teachers have been having as much fun as "students". [Aside: you will be encouraged to use real pharyngeal fricatives.]<BR/>www.biblicalulpan.org<BR/><BR/>shalom laxem שלום לכם<BR/>yisge shlamxon יסגה שלמכו<BR/>χαρις υμιν πληθυνθειηRandall Buthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07790556357991321207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-72230128265486777102008-04-23T21:22:00.000-07:002008-04-23T21:22:00.000-07:00I've got a question for you. In whatever dead lang...I've got a question for you. In whatever dead languages you know, how long did it take for you before you felt like you were no longer just parsing verbs and looking up every other word. In other words, when did you start feeling comfortable with the language? It's a question that came to me while I was reading your post. I think I'll have to ask that on my own blog...and thanks for the link!Eric Sowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18330645816708296424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-63282777523275804982008-04-23T21:05:00.000-07:002008-04-23T21:05:00.000-07:00Thanks, Richard - this post gets an unqualified 'y...Thanks, Richard - this post gets an unqualified 'yes' from me too. I am as stilted as I can be in Hebrew - so much so I sometimes can't even reread my own translations - and I wonder - how did they really sound to each other - and what were <I>their</I> idioms? I can only guess based on the first translations and the earliest uses I know in the NT - but here, I am warned by my rebellion against commonplace assumptions. If my Latin teacher had been more balanced, I might not have been such an angry rebel - but who knows.Bob MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11335631079939764763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-78067621548418547762008-04-23T19:47:00.000-07:002008-04-23T19:47:00.000-07:00Where were you today, Rich? I was reading some of...Where were you today, Rich? I was reading some of Leonard Spengal's Latin translation of and commentary on Aristotle's <I>Rhetoric</I>. I posted an excerpt <B>verbatim</B> and didn't hear Elvis crooning once (and still <A HREF="https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3931921496989071942&postID=4085572327805594796&isPopup=true" REL="nofollow">don't know</A> what it all means!) <BR/><BR/>I do think there are analogies in learning, that are helpful to learning language, even dead ones. Like how Monty Roberts learned to "gentle" or to "whisper" horses. (He has reduced the amount of time it takes to "break" a wild horse from around 6 weeks of sheer pain to the tied up and beaten animal to around 30 minutes with absolutely no pain!!! It's gotten the notice of the Queen of England, and has completely revolutionized horse training--and now dog training--and even work with autistic children. In Fort Worth, or "Cowtown," Texas USA where I live, I've seen this remarkable thing first hand. No idiot now "breaks" horses the old fashioned way.) Also Kenneth L. Pike's monolingual demonstrations use the very same kinds of techniques. And Pike could learn the language of another friendly human being in minutes (with lexicon, phonology, syntax developed substantially). <BR/><BR/>Yeah, I know the next objections: horses and humans, not Romans, are alive. And yet. and yet. I've got a secret....J. K. Gaylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07600312868663460988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-39834653268633837972008-04-23T19:30:00.000-07:002008-04-23T19:30:00.000-07:00Seconded. Thank you for adding some confirmation t...Seconded. Thank you for adding some confirmation to the various thoughts floating through my brain. Advice is always welcome.Nathan Stitthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00506272374727904953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-44636035689619026992008-04-23T18:20:00.000-07:002008-04-23T18:20:00.000-07:00Rich, as much as I enjoy debating with you...I can...Rich, as much as I enjoy debating with you...I can't on this one. This post is beautiful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com