tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post116187755658162058..comments2023-10-20T07:28:50.948-07:00Comments on Better Bibles Blog: Generic use of "son"Wayne Lemanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18024771201561767893noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1162036783840096832006-10-28T04:59:00.000-07:002006-10-28T04:59:00.000-07:00JT, isn't your comment about my "customary level o...JT, isn't your comment about my "<I>customary level of maturity</I>" an example of "<I>question[ing] the spirituality, beliefs, or motives of anyone, including Bible translation teams or those who post or comment on this blog</I>"? On the other hand, my point was that you asked for evidence about "evangelical scholars" and I realised that it might not be entirely self-evident that the statement I quoted came from such scholars.<BR/><BR/>So, if "<I>The distinction... is between translation and meaning/application</I>", do you or the Colorado Springs Guidelines thereby imply that it is wrong to translate <I>huioi</I> as "sons and daughters" even in case where the meaning is undoubtedly "sons and daughters"? In other words, do you and the Guidelines want to promote deliberately incorrect and misleading translations? I certainly hope not, but I can't get any other meaning out of your comment.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1161993438374033992006-10-27T16:57:00.000-07:002006-10-27T16:57:00.000-07:00JT, There has been a fair amount of discussion on ...JT, There has been a fair amount of discussion on this blog regarding this subject. I didn't want to take the time or use up the space to duplicate what's already been presented.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure what you mean by "the distinction is between translation and meaning/application." The purpose of translation is to convey the meaning of a text. <BR/><BR/>Peter, Thanks for providing the information for JT.Dan Sindlingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11182657797255150804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1161984571538394872006-10-27T14:29:00.000-07:002006-10-27T14:29:00.000-07:00The distinction, Peter, is between translation and...The distinction, Peter, is between translation and meaning/application. Dan referred to the latter, which is incorrect.<BR/><BR/>Your closing line reflects your customary level of maturity. "Blog posts and comments should focus on Bible translation issues, not personalities. Support claims with evidence. Do not question the spirituality, beliefs, or motives of anyone, including Bible translation teams or those who post or comment on this blog."<BR/><BR/>JTJThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870180415697038018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1161979486576879302006-10-27T13:04:00.000-07:002006-10-27T13:04:00.000-07:00JT, you have put the word "all" into Dan's mouth i...JT, you have put the word "all" into Dan's mouth in "<I>think that all masculine Greek terms apply only to males</I>". Dan was referring to certain masculine Greek terms, obviously including the one he uses here as an example, <I>huios</I>. Concerning several such terms, I can refer you to the infamous <A HREF="http://www.bible-researcher.com/csguidelines.html" REL="nofollow">Colorado Springs Guidelines</A>, which state the following about <I>huios</I>:<BR/><BR/>2. "Son" (<I>huios, ben</I>) should not be changed to "child," or "sons" (<I>huioi</I>) to "children" or "sons and daughters." (However, Hebrew <I>banim</I> often means "children.")<BR/><BR/>The implication of this is that the signatories of these guidelines do not accept that <I>huioi</I> can have the gender generic meaning "children" or "sons and daughters", but only the gender specific one "sons". (Of course their statement says nothing about places like Matthew 5:9 where <I>huioi</I> has been rendered "children" at least since 1611, although the TNIV rendering here which is almost the same as the KJV one is <A HREF="http://www.genderneutralbibles.com/category.php" REL="nofollow">listed by CBMW</A> as a "translation inaccuracy".)<BR/><BR/>Of course you be in doubt whether the signatories of these guidelines, including such people as Wayne Grudem and Vern Poythress, can properly be called "scholars".Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1161955324102598822006-10-27T06:22:00.000-07:002006-10-27T06:22:00.000-07:00Dan:Can you provide examples of evangelical schola...Dan:<BR/><BR/>Can you provide examples of evangelical scholars who think that all masculine Greek terms apply only to males?<BR/><BR/>Frankly, the debates deserves better than this caricature.<BR/><BR/>JTJThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870180415697038018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1161881059514302272006-10-26T09:44:00.000-07:002006-10-26T09:44:00.000-07:00Thanks for this good example which proves that "so...Thanks for this good example which proves that "sons" is not gender specific. The second verb here in the Greek, the passive of <I>gamisko</I>, must have a bride as the subject, and so the subject must include men and women. Although homosexuality was not rare among Greeks, I don't think they had any such custom as homosexual marriage and probably no language to use about it.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.com