tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post116776183140123558..comments2023-10-20T07:28:50.948-07:00Comments on Better Bibles Blog: Christmas NostalgiaWayne Lemanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18024771201561767893noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1167945166199864172007-01-04T13:12:00.000-08:002007-01-04T13:12:00.000-08:00Thanks, John. You're right, of course. Luke 8:10 m...Thanks, John. You're right, of course. Luke 8:10 might have been better. But there, and especially in Mat. 13:11 the TEV is otherwise awkwardly phrased. <I>"The knowledge about the secrets of the Kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them."</I> (As Peter just pointed out.) The TEV translators seemed to go for that approach. (They did it again, for example, in Col. 4:3.)<BR/><BR/>They can't even let well enough alone in:<BR/><BR/>Rom. 11:25 <I>For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of <B>this mystery</B>, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.</I> (KJV)<BR/><BR/><I>There is a <B>secret truth</B>, my friends, which I want you to know, for it will keep you from thinking how wise you are. It is that the stubbornness of the people of Israel is not permanent, but will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to God.</I> (GNB)<BR/><BR/>Aargh! It's not a <I>secret truth</I>; it's just a secret. It's truthfulness is not at issue. It may have come as a surprise to the Gentile Christians who were ready to write the Jews off. But I don't think Paul expected a challenge. And it's certainly not a mystery, at all.<BR/><BR/>BTW, Mat. 13:11 should read: "You get to know the secrets of the Kingdom of heaven, they don't."<BR/><BR/>But that's my point. Even with the variant reading, the King James doesn't make sense <B>in English</B> with the word <I>mystery</I>. Most of the time that μυστεριον is used in the NT (27 or 28 times depending on variants), it only makes sense if it means 'secret'. My claim is basically that <I>mystery</I> is a false friend, but we read right past it. And worse it taints our theology, as we can see in the TEV translators who can't quite bring themselves just to say "secret".Richard A. Rhodeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14227550014596898280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1167932499425352102007-01-04T09:41:00.000-08:002007-01-04T09:41:00.000-08:00John, thank you for pointing this out. The textual...John, thank you for pointing this out. The textual variant in the Byzantine text, and so presumably in the Textus Receptus, is addition of the word <I>gnonai</I> "to know", and some reordering. Oddly enough it is not mentioned in the apparatus of the scholarly Nestle-Aland text, presumably because it lacks early manuscript support and is a rather obvious harmonisation with the parallel in Matthew 13:11, where "secret" is plural and TEV has "<I>The knowledge about the secrets of the Kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.</I>"Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1167924362697571332007-01-04T07:26:00.000-08:002007-01-04T07:26:00.000-08:00Richard,Thanks for the poem and your translation.*...Richard,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the poem and your translation.<BR/><BR/>* * * * * * *<BR/><BR/>You said<BR/><BR/><I>Mark 4:11 <BR/>misleading: And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God (KJV)<BR/><BR/>accurate: "You have been given the secret of the Kingdom of God," Jesus answered. (TEV)</I><BR/><BR/>Now I agree that here TEV is clearer, but even with "mystery" replaced by "secret" they still don't say the same thing. I wondered if TEV had oversimplified, but when I compared a few other versions they all said much the same as TEV. So I finally checked out the underlying Greek and, as suspected, there's a variant reading. So perhaps not the best example you could have chosen!John Radcliffehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17457933540067146460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1167843714996616722007-01-03T09:01:00.000-08:002007-01-03T09:01:00.000-08:00Wayne, perhaps I should have put it more like this...Wayne, perhaps I should have put it more like this. Both you and I have some familiarity with KJV English from our earlier years. But it never meant much to us, and when we came to value the Bible as teaching for our spiritual growth, rather than a traditional part of Christmas etc, it was through modern translations. So while we associate KJV with tradition, we do not consider it to be very meaningful or helpful for our growth. In short, we don't expect to understand KJV. As such we differ from those who received detailed Christian teaching based on KJV. Would you agree with that?Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1167816371819894622007-01-03T01:26:00.000-08:002007-01-03T01:26:00.000-08:00Peter,But you missed something by ignoring the obv...Peter,<BR/><BR/><I>But you missed something by ignoring the obvious allusion to the Austrian carol "Stille Nacht" and not translating it with the familiar "Silent Night", although "I'd like a frosty silent night" would have fitted your metre well.</I><BR/><BR/>Good point. Somehow the fact that it said "eine stille Nacht" undid the allusion for me (but then I'm not a native speaker). And I was looking for sense. It means 'quiet' here, not necessarily 'silent'. (Come to think of it, 'Silent Night' isn't such a great translation. In German it feels more like 'quiet, calm' than 'silent'.)<BR/><BR/>The process was this. I realized when I started the post with the brief quote, I'd need to give the whole thing eventually, which meant I was going to have to translate it. So I sketched a translation -- not exactly hard in this case, and I quickly realized that I could readily put it in verse of about the same quality as the original. The first allusion fell out of the translation: <I>ich wünsche mir X</I>, lit. 'I wish for X', is the normal way one talks about wanting Christmas presents.<BR/><BR/>The second allusion I put in <I>post hoc</I>.<BR/><BR/><I>es war einmal</I>, lit. 'it was once'/'there was once' is the way fairy tales start. = 'once upon a time'<BR/><BR/>Maybe this is a lesson in the process of translation. You don't always notice all the allusions when you're focused on other things.Richard A. Rhodeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14227550014596898280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1167783553414164012007-01-02T16:19:00.000-08:002007-01-02T16:19:00.000-08:00Peter, I intended to include the fact that because...Peter, I intended to include the fact that because I grew up on the KJV, I have special feelings for it. I remember its wordings. They have a warm, familiar, nostalgic feeling for me. But, as I mentioned in my preceding comment, I have come to realize that Bibles which are translated into my own dialect of contemporary English speak to me better. I am impacted more deeply mentally and spiritually by them.Wayne Lemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18024771201561767893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1167776373242856532007-01-02T14:19:00.000-08:002007-01-02T14:19:00.000-08:00Perhaps Wayne and I think differently about such t...<I>Perhaps Wayne and I think differently about such things because we don't know how it "ought to sound", because we were not brought up in churches where we were made to read and learn a lot of KJV.</I><BR/><BR/>Actually, Peter, I did grow up in a KJV church. The church continues to use the KJV today. I memorized large amounts of the KJV as I was growing up. In my late teens I was exposed to Bibles written in contemporary English and I've never been the same since. The Bible makes so much more sense to me when it is worded as my family, friends, coworkers, and others normally speak and write. I realize that the idea that the Bible can, and perhaps even should, be written in current language is not an idea that everyone accepts. But it is one which has made a lot of difference in my own spiritual growth. And I've seen it make a difference in other people's lives also.Wayne Lemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18024771201561767893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1167768406041891812007-01-02T12:06:00.000-08:002007-01-02T12:06:00.000-08:00Wayne can ask if we can hear what’s odd about h...<I>Wayne can ask if we can hear what’s odd about<BR/><BR/> </I>he has filled the hungry with good things,<BR/> and the rich he has sent empty away<I><BR/><BR/>and most of us scratch our heads, precisely because it sounds like it “ought to sound”.</I><BR/><BR/>Perhaps Wayne and I think differently about such things because we don't know how it "ought to sound", because we were not brought up in churches where we were made to read and learn a lot of KJV.<BR/><BR/><I>For poetry you need to cut the translator more slack.</I><BR/><BR/>Indeed. But you missed something by ignoring the obvious allusion to the Austrian carol "Stille Nacht" and not translating it with the familiar "Silent Night", although "I'd like a frosty silent night" would have fitted your metre well.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-1167765161361716022007-01-02T11:12:00.000-08:002007-01-02T11:12:00.000-08:00How rich!Sometimes the empty can be sent away rich...How rich!<BR/><BR/>Sometimes the empty can be sent away rich, eh, Rich?!Wayne Lemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18024771201561767893noreply@blogger.com