tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post6034034665785040971..comments2023-10-20T07:28:50.948-07:00Comments on Better Bibles Blog: The Weaker VesselWayne Lemanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18024771201561767893noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-78602926496751137862008-01-17T07:59:00.000-08:002008-01-17T07:59:00.000-08:00Peter,Good idea to see the various ways Paul would...Peter,<BR/>Good idea to see the various ways Paul would use σκευος. <BR/><BR/>And I still think Paul's readers find more here. Following Dr. James Strong's <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong's_Concordance" REL="nofollow">collaborative</A> concordance, we can find a Greek phrase correspondence to Jesus without too much difficulty.<BR/><BR/>There's:<BR/><BR/>σκευος - skeuos 4632; furniture, i.e. spare tackle:--tackling.<BR/><BR/>of uncertain affinity; a vessel, implement, equipment or apparatus (literally or figuratively (specially, a wife as contributing to the usefulness of the husband)):--goods, sail, stuff, vessel. [SEE the Verbal Uses in the Homeric Hymn and in the LXX, as in my comment above]<BR/><BR/>then:<BR/><BR/>σκηνή skene 4633 - <B>apparently akin to skeuos 4632</B> and skia 4639; a tent or cloth hut (literally or figuratively):--habitation, tabernacle.<BR/><BR/>and:<BR/><BR/>καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ <B>ἐσκήνωσεν</B> ἐν ἡμῖν καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας (John 1:14)<BR/><BR/>and<BR/><BR/>οὐ γὰρ ἔχομεν ἀρχιερέα μὴ δυνάμενον συμπαθῆσαι ταῖς <B>ἀσθενείαις</B> ἡμῶν πεπειρασμένον δὲ κατὰ πάντα καθ' ὁμοιότητα χωρὶς ἁμαρτίας (Hebrews 4:15)<BR/><BR/>Hence:<BR/><BR/>From the various senses of ἀσθενεστέρῳ σκεύει, we see Jesus himself having the very qualities of τῷ γυναικείῳ. He is "vesseled" or "tented" or even "furnished" like us, in our very skin; and he sympathizes with our "weaknesses," whether we're male or female.<BR/><BR/>All of the sudden, our constructs of women and of the man go fragile and delicate.J. K. Gaylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07600312868663460988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-46345530429734719612008-01-17T07:04:00.000-08:002008-01-17T07:04:00.000-08:00In support of our rendering I might refer again to...In support of our rendering I might refer again to 2 Corinthians 4:7, where the same word <I>skeuos</I> is used in a context in which the pots or vessels are literally of pottery and the point is that they are fragile.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-28308832545211919562008-01-16T21:27:00.000-08:002008-01-16T21:27:00.000-08:00Thanks for all the good thoughts. I think this sho...Thanks for all the good thoughts. I think this shows how valuable it would be to have a group of women involved in bible translation. We are all going to have different thoughts on this. Especially with the Proverbs! <BR/><BR/>Peter, <BR/><BR/>That is an interesting option. Nyland has "weaker livlihood." I guess it seems that σκευος is broader in meaning that "pot" or "container" in English. "Is in a weaker position" might be a better translation. That is, σκευος is not as specific as pot. It can mean that the woman is more poorly equipped in some way, physically, socially or financially. <BR/><BR/>Lots to think about.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-17636180954337031452008-01-16T20:27:00.000-08:002008-01-16T20:27:00.000-08:00most women don't mind admitting that they are phys...<I>most women don't mind admitting that they are physically weaker.</I><BR/><BR/>Sometimes, it seems that biblical writers reinforce us to believe that since men are usually the stronger vessel, we men can get away with using brute force rather than being kindhearted, e.g., "A gracious woman gets honor, but violent men get riches." -Prov.11:16. I'm not sure what knd of sexism this is. I wonder what violent women and gracious men would get?Kevin A. Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05052005947620751144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-24186323503928922042008-01-16T08:13:00.000-08:002008-01-16T08:13:00.000-08:00We had some discussion about this on the translati...We had some discussion about this on the translation project I worked on, in which the translators are mostly women. The rendering we came up with (translated back into English) was something like "treating her as you would treat a delicate pot", in other words according to the grammar taking "weak" as a description not of the woman but of the vessel.Peter Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395635409427347613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-52443624143452763562008-01-16T05:33:00.000-08:002008-01-16T05:33:00.000-08:00Interesting conclusions:I've always read "as unto....Interesting conclusions:<BR/><BR/>I've always read "as unto..." as meaning "as if she were" meaning not that she is, but treat her respectfully, and preciously as if she were.<BR/><BR/>I believe that in that context it makes much less of a sexist connotation, and probably fits with what the KJV translators had in mind in using such word choice.<BR/><BR/>I preface that with saying that I am by no means a literary scholar, just a person who himself likes to dig into the meaning and semantics behind words.<BR/><BR/>Great blog, keep up the great work; its been a blessing for me personally.Antoinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00371682086103475065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-57034358218204273042008-01-15T08:01:00.000-08:002008-01-15T08:01:00.000-08:00Some women have appropriated this term and use it ...Some women have appropriated this term and use it to stand for themselves as victims of abuse. Somehow, I don't think women see it as objectifying women, so I don't see it as sexist myself. It is interesting that some men see it that way.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-53966739691444786972008-01-15T04:00:00.000-08:002008-01-15T04:00:00.000-08:00Ha, good points Suzanne. C is a very very bad ans...Ha, good points Suzanne. C is a very very bad answer: Some of us men have been drips and can be very contentious like women as well.<BR/><BR/>Since you've brought in one of those Hebrew parallelisms, how about the LXX translation of the parallelism (Ecclesiastes 10:1) in which the verb form of σκεύει is used by the (polygamist) Solomon?<BR/><BR/>μυῖαι θανατοῦσαι σαπριοῦσιν <B>σκευασίαν</B> ἐλαίου ἡδύσματος τίμιον ὀλίγον σοφίας ὑπὲρ δόξαν ἀφροσύνης μεγάλης<BR/><BR/>(which further translated into English by a male scholar in NETS:<BR/>"Deadly flies will make a preparation of aromatic oil give off a foul odor; a little wisdom is of more worth than honor derived from great folly")<BR/><BR/>And could those men using Greek to translate Solomon have been familiar with the sexist Homeric Hymn to Hermes (4.285) which starts with this rant?<BR/><BR/><B>σκευάζοντα</B> κατ' οἶκον ἄτερ ψόφου<BR/><BR/>("since you have stolen his furniture, and without making a sound" as Daryl Hine puts it in English)<BR/><BR/>Isn't stinky folly and stolen furniture related, somehow, to the weaker vessel woman?J. K. Gaylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07600312868663460988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11875966.post-16610401685819605512008-01-15T00:36:00.000-08:002008-01-15T00:36:00.000-08:00"A" with the slight modification that it is not "f..."A" with the slight modification that it is not "fewer" it is only one area.Glennsphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18157051195736064330noreply@blogger.com