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Tuesday, July 26, 2005

"Women" passages from The Source

Brian of Christendom Blogosis has asked:
Can you give an example of some verses in relation to the below comment [from Ann Nyland].
Take the women passages for example. They contained some rarer and more misunderstood words. Many people do not want to know what the Greek here really says, as it conflicts with what they have been brought up to believe - and this is quite a problem.
I would be interested to see how she translated them.
OK, Brian. I have followed much of the debate over such verses for a number of years, so I think I can locate ones you would be interested in. I'll post these before I pack my suitcase tonight. If there are other verses from The Source which you would like to know how they are translated, ask in a comment to this message. One of the other contributors might be able to copy some other verse(s) for you, or I'll get to it when I return from our retreat.

Again, a reminder to everyone that on this blog we ask that comments to blog posts about a Bible versions not be made which are disparaging of the person or persons who translated it. We ask that comments not be made which label or categorize the translator(s), especially with pejorative words. We ask that all comments be directed at the translation wordings themselves, and that comments which express disagreement supply some biblical language evidence to support the disagreement. In other words, let's address translation issues and not personalities. These are the same rules which, for a number of years, have guided those of us who have been moderators of the email Bible Translation discussion list. These rules work. They cut down on flame wars. If everyone who publicly makes statements about Bible versions would follow these rules, I believe that the Bible reading public would be better off. There would be more helpful substantive information and less name-calling, mind-reading, suspicison, and judgementalism.

OK, on to some verses.

Eph. 5:21-24:
Be filled with the Spirit, while you are supporting one another out of respect for the Anointed One, wives, with your own husbands, as with the Lord. The man is the source of the woman just as the Anointed One is the source of the assembly. He himself is the protector of the body. Just as the assembly is a support for the Anointed One, so also let the wives be a support for their husbands in everything.
Col. 3:18:
Wives, be supportive of your husbands, just as you are connected with the Lord.
1 Tim. 2:11-14:
A woman must learn and she is to learn without causing a fuss and be supportive in everything. I most certainly do not grant authority to a woman to teach that she is the originator of a man - rather, she is not to cause a fuss - for Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman made a mistake as she was beguiled, and she will be saved by means of the Birth of the Child if they continue to be trustworthy, loving and holy and have good sense.
1 Tim. 3:11:
In the same way also, female deacons must be dignified, not slanderers or drunks, but trustworthy in everything.
1 Cor. 11:4-12:
Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered disgraces his head. Every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered disgraces her head - it would be one and the same if she'd had a shaved head. If a woman doesn't cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off, and since it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut off or shaved off, she should cover her head.

On the other hand, a man ought not to cover his head as the man is the portrait of the beginning of God's splendor, and on the other hand the woman is the splendor of man. Man is not from woman but the woman is from man, for in fact man was not created by means of a woman, but the woman was created by means of a man.

For this reason the woman ought to have hr authority upon her head on account of the Messengers, except that, as far as the Lord is concerned, a woman isn't separate froma man nor is a man separate from a woman. It's a fact that just as the woman comes from the man, in the same way too the man comes through the woman! But all things are from God.
I have both a printed version of The Source as well as the PDF e-text, but I do not have a way to copy and paste from the PDF file (the file is locked for security, so conversion software doesn't work on it). So I have had to keyboard each of these passage myself. If you think you spot a typo (as I am aging I have been making many more than I used to), feel free to question a spelling. That happened on Kenny Pearce's blog where a visitor spotted that an excerpt from Dr. Nyland's version of 1 Cor. 13 had "love is king." That visitor noticed how different "love is king" is from the traditional "love is kind." I apologized for the typo (my bad!) in my previous post comparing the TNIV and TSNT wordings. I then corrected my typo in the blog post. For me, Jesus is King! And love is "kind." Love is also the greatest of all the gifts, according to Paul, so, in a sense it is "king" of the gifts, but that is not what the Greek says in 1 Cor. 13, nor is it what Ann had in her translation.

OK, I must pack my suitcase now and then sleep, before we fly off into the sunset, hmm, I think we will land in Vancouver an hour or so before sunset.

Have a good rest of the week, everyone. I enjoy interacting with you. God's Written Word has always been special to me, and it is special to talk with others about how it is translated.



At Tue Jul 26, 08:38:00 PM, Blogger Brian said...

Thanks Wayne.

My purpose was merely to see how such verses were translated. I actually didn't have any verses in mind.

After looking up the verses you pasted all I can say is they are drastically different than all of the other versions I have access to.

I would have to study more to comment on their accuracy, however, some of her translations don't seem to be too clear.

For example, "Wives, be supportive of your husbands, just as you are connected to the Lord." vs "Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord." I am not sure I quite understand the "just as you are connected to the Lord" part.

In 1 Tim. 3:11 she states that "female deacons must be..." the ESV states that the deacon's wives must be...

At any rate, I definitely look forward to more examples. I would pick up a copy but the price is a bit high for me right now.

Thanks again.


At Tue Jul 26, 09:10:00 PM, Blogger Wayne Leman said...

"After looking up the verses you pasted all I can say is they are drastically different than all of the other versions I have access to."

Yes, Brian, that is why in my first post about the TSNT I wrote: "The Source is sure to stir up debate among Bible scholars and that is a good thing. Dr. Nyland is well grounded in Greek lexicography and bases her translation on that lexicographic research. Not everyone will agree with her, but I hope that everyone will take this translation seriously."

Dr. Nyland is following exegetical interpretations of the Greek which have not been traditional ones.

You noticed: "n 1 Tim. 3:11 she states that "female deacons must be..." the ESV states that the deacon's wives must be..."

Yes, very different. That is why it is necessary to study the Greek rather than other English versions to determine if a wording is accurate or not. The Greek is literally "their women" and that can refer to "their wives" (that is the wives of the male deacons which have just been discussed) or it can refer to women in the assembly who had a similar role to the male deacons who have just been described. Dig around some and you will find that Ann has chosen an interpretation of those Greek words which has been around for quite some time. Few English Bible versions, however, have chosen that interpretation.

You said: "I am not sure I quite understand the "just as you are connected to the Lord" part."

That part is a meaning-based translation of Greek en xristou, which is translated as "in Christ" in traditional wordings. The problem with "in Christ" is that it has little, if any, meaning to English speakers. "In Christ" is what some call a lexical transliteration. The words are translated to English, but not the meaning of how the words syntactically relate to each other in Greek. ("Baptize" is another example of a transliteration from the Greek word baptizo.) You have to be taught by a Bible teacher what "in Christ" means to understand it.

You ended: "At any rate, I definitely look forward to more examples."

Me too. But at this point, I'll need some ideas from you or others as to what verses you would like to see posted. I have run out of ideas, and now I have run out of time.

Good night, Brian. Thanks for your good questions.

At Wed Jul 27, 06:29:00 AM, Blogger Brian said...

Thanks for the reply.

It was a bonus to have you break it down. :)

When you get back I will post a few more verses related to this subject that I would be curious to see how she translates them.

Hopefully, I can scrape up the funds at some point to pick up a copy myself.


At Wed Jul 27, 03:14:00 PM, Anonymous Kenny Pearce said...

The Greek of 1 Timothy 3:11 literally says "their women"? Actually it just says "women". Not even the article. In Attic (the Greek of classical Athens) the article often has possessive force, but my understanding is that this usage is rare in Koine, so that in Koine if the sense "their women" (i.e. their wives) was meant, one would expect an actual possessive pronoun, as in the English.

Thanks for posting these excerpts, I find them very interesting, and am working on getting access to a copy of the translation.

At Wed Jul 27, 07:24:00 PM, Blogger Brian said...


If that is the case, the meaning of the verse is completely changed. That is what I found very interesting.

I would like to see 1 Peter 3:1-7 when Wayne gets back.


At Sat Jul 30, 04:22:00 PM, Blogger Wayne Leman said...

Kenny, thank you for catching my error of including the word "their" in "their women." Not too long after I posted that comment, I realized I had made that error, but I was away from Internet access and could not fix it. I am now using an Internet station at our hotel in Canada. Now I can simply affirm you that the Greek does literally refer only to "women." Exegetically, therefore, my original comments stand, but not no the basis of English "their." The Greek word for "women" here can refer to either the wives of the male deacons just discussed or to women who served as the male deacons just mentioned. Traditional exegesis has chosen the latter option, but the former is also allowed by Greek. Now I must get off this computer before my time is up on this machine. I'll be back home late tomorrow (Sunday) evening.


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