Burer has responded to my original comment that the phrase from Psalm of Solomon
- ἐν ἐπισήμῳ ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν
- ἐπισήμῳ ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν
Here is my comment posted on Adrian's blog,
- I appreciate the fact that you have cleared up this point.
Certainly, I felt that the original truncated quote was inappropriate, especially since this particular quote is listed as a close parallel to Romans 16:7. By truncating the quote, it was made to appear closer than it is.
I still do not understand fully how this verse is a parallel to Romans 16:7. First, you originally wrote that it was a parallel to Romans 16:7 because 'people' are the referent of the adjective επισημος, but later you provide a translation for this phrase, εν επισημω 'in (a place) notorious/ visible'.
If, in fact, it is επισημος, and not επισημον, then it is an adjective refering to 'place' understood, and it is not an adjective refering to 'people', and therefore it is not by your criteria, a parallel.
I understand you to be saying here today that this verse is both a) ambiguous and b) not a "close parallel" to Romans 16:7. Perhaps I have misunderstood.
I was very surprised to read about the translation of Romans 16:7 proposed in your article since it directly counters the understanding of the early Greek speaking church fathers, and the understanding of the modern Greek Vamva version, translated by a native speaker of Greek.
I understand that native Greek speakers and, in fact, the entire translation tradition up until a few years ago, have understood this phrase to mean "among the apostles" but you introduce a very novel translation. When something this novel turns up, all evidence must stand up to scrutiny and it cannot be simply assumed.
Since this verse is not the close parallel that it was claimed to be, the discussion must rest on the sum of your other quotes.
However, I have questions of equivalent value regarding each of the quotes that you provide in your article. I do not feel that this issue is resolved.
- I think that it is significant that Dr. Burer has not acknowedged the NETS translation of either Psalm of Solomon 2:6 or 17:30.
In fact, since this is a highly literal translation, I note with surprise that it is not mentioned and that Dr. Burer remarks that,"This is the way the standard translations render Ps. Sol. 17:6."
Is Dr. Burer claiming that the recent NETS translation is not 'standard'?
Given the NETS rendering 'with a mark among the nations' this verse can only be ambiguous at best, it cannot be used as supporting documention to disambiguate other ambiguous phrases.
Contrary to what some people think, every post on this blog must promote accurate translation of the original text first, and let the chips fall where they may. My difficulty is that when certain scholars write a quantity of text with the express purpose of restricting women, their vision regarding the Greek text may be blurred.
On a further note, three Greek church fathers regard Andronicus and Junia as apostles, first Chrysostom,
- Greet Andronicus and Junia . . . who are outstanding among the apostles” (Romans 16:7): To be an apostle is something great. But to be outstanding among the apostles—just think what a wonderful song of praise that is! They were outstanding on the basis of their works and virtuous actions. Indeed, how great the wisdom of this woman must have been that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle. (In ep. ad Romanos 31.2; PG 60.669-670)
- Then to be called "of note" not only among the disciples but also among the teachers, and not just among the teachers but even among the apostles. (Interpretatio in quatuordecim epistolas S Pauli 82.200)
- And to be called "apostles" is a great thing ... but to be even amongst these of note, just consider what a great encomium this is. (Commentary on Paul's Epistles 95.565)
Addendum: Dave Warnock gives a third party view of the action on Adrian's blog. He remarks,
- Time and time again arguments against "male headship" are silently rejected, dismissed as irrelevant or (and in particular) subjected to ad hominen attacks. Two powerful examples are:
The way Suzanne McCarthy's arguments are treated in these threads. See Adrian's Blog: Wayne Grudem Replies to a Critic and Better Bibles Blog: Wayne Grudem: Bridgebuilder? (I referred to this in 42: Suzanne Superbly Summarises) and Speaker of Truth: Adrian Warnock censors those who find an error in Grudem's words. I believe that Suzanne did more work to carefully check Wayne Grudem's statements in this interview than anyone else. However, her arguments were deleted, mocked, dismissed and she was subjected to personal attack.
Addendum #2 Since I wrote this post Adrian has posted my comments on his blog, including my protest here,
- For my part, I feel that I have stayed with telling the truth and quoting books. I feel that others who comment on this blog have said some very unpleasant things both about me and to me.
As I said, I don't, as a women, feel very comfortable here. Complementarian men and egalitarian men may be equal, but women are not. I feel very hurt by the way I have been treated.
I think, for the most part, women, myself included, either protest too angrily, or put on a brave front. It is about time somone said out loud that "permanent subordination" is a very icky thought.